Pravim dimere i potrebna mi je prigusnica 100µH oko 10A moze i manje e sada kako da napravim i koji toroid da koristim na semi dimera mi pise :
To make these inductors, try about 10 turns of insulated wire wound on a powdered iron toroid. Do not use a high permeability core such as ferrite, as this will saturate and may damage the TRIAC. Make sure that the inductors are firmly mounted, and that accidental contact is not possible while the system is live.
e sada da li bi moga o neki toroid od ATX napajanja od kompa ?
i kolko namotaja i debljinu zice da motam?
Evo i seme gde bi trebala da se koristi prigusnica !
Pozz
http://www.elektronika.ba/forum/uploadz ... dimer1.JPG
Prigusnica 100µH
Moderators: pedja089, stojke369, [eDo], trax, LAF
Re: Prigusnica 100µH
[quote="miloradkuzz"]Pravim dimere i potrebna mi je prigusnica 100µH oko 10A moze i manje e sada kako da napravim i koji toroid da koristim na semi dimera mi pise :
To make these inductors, try about 10 turns of insulated wire wound on a powdered iron toroid. [b]Do not use a high permeability core such as ferrite, as this will saturate and may damage the TRIAC[/b]. Make sure that the inductors are firmly mounted, and that accidental contact is not possible while the system is live.
e sada da li bi moga o neki toroid od ATX napajanja od kompa ?
i kolko namotaja i debljinu zice da motam?
Evo i seme gde bi trebala da se koristi prigusnica !
Pozz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pise ti da NE KORISTIS VISOKOPERMEABILNE FERITNE JEZGRE, a takve su ti u prekidackim napajanjima. Ako imas koji industrijski regulator za svjetlo (dimmer), razmotaj prigusnicu iz njega i vidi kakva je jezgra.
To make these inductors, try about 10 turns of insulated wire wound on a powdered iron toroid. [b]Do not use a high permeability core such as ferrite, as this will saturate and may damage the TRIAC[/b]. Make sure that the inductors are firmly mounted, and that accidental contact is not possible while the system is live.
e sada da li bi moga o neki toroid od ATX napajanja od kompa ?
i kolko namotaja i debljinu zice da motam?
Evo i seme gde bi trebala da se koristi prigusnica !
Pozz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pise ti da NE KORISTIS VISOKOPERMEABILNE FERITNE JEZGRE, a takve su ti u prekidackim napajanjima. Ako imas koji industrijski regulator za svjetlo (dimmer), razmotaj prigusnicu iz njega i vidi kakva je jezgra.
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43
Sta ces da napajas preko ovog dimmera? Po semi je to sijalica, ali me cudi struja 10A (2KVA). Ako je to obicna silalica 220V/100W prigusnicu mozes i da izbacis tj. maknes. Ovakve prigusnice za neke druge sklopove slicne namene sam pravio od feritnog jezgra iz radio prijemnika. Jes da nije torus, ali nije se imalo drugo. Jezgro je inace oko 10cm a debljine 1cm i namotas 70navoja. Probaj....da li bi moglo da se izostavi ta prigusnica...
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43
-
Firkragg
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43
Ako upotrebis recimo moc3041 ili neki slican koji je zero crossing netreba ti ta prigusnica koja je zbog smetnji da ne bi smetnje ulazile nazad u mrezu koje stvara triak. Onda moras da ubacis jos jedan otpornik kod povezivanja optotriaka moc3041, pogledaj pdf proizvodjaca tamo imas shemu spajanja.
Mislim da ce ti trebati i hladnjak na trijak zbog 2KW opterecenja ako je slabiji trijak nisam provijeravao koji je u pitanju.
SA tvojim moc3020 radice ti i bez prigusnice ali tesko da ce neko u istoj kuci gledati tv ili slusati radio:)
Mislim da ce ti trebati i hladnjak na trijak zbog 2KW opterecenja ako je slabiji trijak nisam provijeravao koji je u pitanju.
SA tvojim moc3020 radice ti i bez prigusnice ali tesko da ce neko u istoj kuci gledati tv ili slusati radio:)
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43
Ja sam malo prepravio semu upotrebio sam moc3041 pa vi cidite da li sam ja to dobro spojio i da li to moze tako da radi!
Pozz
http://www.elektronika.ba/forum/uploadz ... dimer2.JPG
Pozz
http://www.elektronika.ba/forum/uploadz ... dimer2.JPG
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43
-
DRUG STARI
- Pravo uznapredovao :)
- Posts: 461
- Joined: 12-02-2006, 21:14
- Location: Hrvatska
Ti valjda jesi elektronicar 
Pogledaj zasto dimerima stavljaju te prigusnice, ima jos shema po netu.
Prigusnicu ako bas hoces mozes da uzmes torus iz PC napajanja razmotas i namotas nekoliko zavoja ali barem 1mm lak zice ili deblje.
Evo i objasnjenja o prigusnicama(chokes ,coils) u dimmerima.
Radio frequency interference details
The modern thyristor (Triac or SCR) dimmer has one fairly severe drawback in its performance in that it dims by switching on the current to the load part-way through each mains cycle. Cutting the leading smooth-part off a mains cycle produces a current with a very rapid turn-on time which generates both mains distortions and EMI. Chokes are included in dimmers to slow down the rapid switch-on (rise time) of the chopped current. The longer the rise time the less EMI and mains distortion produced.
Turn on of the triac in the middle of the phase causes fast voltage and current changes. A typical thyristor/triac starts to fully conduct at around 1 microsecond time after triggering, so the current change is very fast if it not limited in any way. Those fast voltage and current changes cause high frequency interference going to mains wiring unless there are suitable radio frequency interference (RFI) filter built into the circuit. The corners in the waveform effectively consist of 50/60Hz plus varying amounts of other frequencies that are multiples of 50/60Hz. In some cases the interference goes up to 1..10Mhz frequencies and even higher. The wiring in your house acts as an antenna and essentially broadcasts it into the air. Cheap bad quality light dimmers don't have adequate filtering and they cause easily lots of radio interference.
Dimmer circuits typically use coils that limit limit the rate of rise of current to that value which would result in acceptable EMI. Typical filtering in light dimmers causes the current rise time (current rises from 10% to 90%) to be in range of 30..50 microseconds. This gives acceptable results in typical dimmer applications in home (typically this limitation is made using 40..100 uH coil).
If the dimmers are used in places where dimmer is a serious problem for sensitive sound equipments (theatres, TV-studios, rock concerts etc.) a slower current rise time would be preferred. Typically the current rise time in light dimmer packs made for stage applications have a current rise speed of around 100..350 microseconds. If noise is a big problem (TV studios etc.), even slower current rise times are sometimes asked. Those current rise times up to 1 millisecond can be achieved with special dimmers or suitable extra coil fitted in series with the dimmer.
The coil itself does not typically solve the whole problem because of the self-capacitance of the inductor: they typically resonate below 200 kHz and look like capacitors to disturbances above the resonance frequency. That's why there must be also capacitors to suppress the interference at higher frequencies.
If your dimmer circuit cause interference, you can try to filter out the interference by adding a small capacitor (typically 22nF to 47 nF) in parallel with the dimmer circuit as near as possible to the electronics inside the circuit as possible. Keep in mind to use a capacitor which is rated for this kind of applications (use capacitors marked with X). Keep in mind that the filter capacitor and it's wiring make a resonance circuit with certain resonance frequency (typically around 3.6 MHz with 0.1 uF capacitor). The capacitor does not work well as filter with the frequencies higher than the resonance frequency of the circuit.
Prigusnicu ako bas hoces mozes da uzmes torus iz PC napajanja razmotas i namotas nekoliko zavoja ali barem 1mm lak zice ili deblje.
Evo i objasnjenja o prigusnicama(chokes ,coils) u dimmerima.
Radio frequency interference details
The modern thyristor (Triac or SCR) dimmer has one fairly severe drawback in its performance in that it dims by switching on the current to the load part-way through each mains cycle. Cutting the leading smooth-part off a mains cycle produces a current with a very rapid turn-on time which generates both mains distortions and EMI. Chokes are included in dimmers to slow down the rapid switch-on (rise time) of the chopped current. The longer the rise time the less EMI and mains distortion produced.
Turn on of the triac in the middle of the phase causes fast voltage and current changes. A typical thyristor/triac starts to fully conduct at around 1 microsecond time after triggering, so the current change is very fast if it not limited in any way. Those fast voltage and current changes cause high frequency interference going to mains wiring unless there are suitable radio frequency interference (RFI) filter built into the circuit. The corners in the waveform effectively consist of 50/60Hz plus varying amounts of other frequencies that are multiples of 50/60Hz. In some cases the interference goes up to 1..10Mhz frequencies and even higher. The wiring in your house acts as an antenna and essentially broadcasts it into the air. Cheap bad quality light dimmers don't have adequate filtering and they cause easily lots of radio interference.
Dimmer circuits typically use coils that limit limit the rate of rise of current to that value which would result in acceptable EMI. Typical filtering in light dimmers causes the current rise time (current rises from 10% to 90%) to be in range of 30..50 microseconds. This gives acceptable results in typical dimmer applications in home (typically this limitation is made using 40..100 uH coil).
If the dimmers are used in places where dimmer is a serious problem for sensitive sound equipments (theatres, TV-studios, rock concerts etc.) a slower current rise time would be preferred. Typically the current rise time in light dimmer packs made for stage applications have a current rise speed of around 100..350 microseconds. If noise is a big problem (TV studios etc.), even slower current rise times are sometimes asked. Those current rise times up to 1 millisecond can be achieved with special dimmers or suitable extra coil fitted in series with the dimmer.
The coil itself does not typically solve the whole problem because of the self-capacitance of the inductor: they typically resonate below 200 kHz and look like capacitors to disturbances above the resonance frequency. That's why there must be also capacitors to suppress the interference at higher frequencies.
If your dimmer circuit cause interference, you can try to filter out the interference by adding a small capacitor (typically 22nF to 47 nF) in parallel with the dimmer circuit as near as possible to the electronics inside the circuit as possible. Keep in mind to use a capacitor which is rated for this kind of applications (use capacitors marked with X). Keep in mind that the filter capacitor and it's wiring make a resonance circuit with certain resonance frequency (typically around 3.6 MHz with 0.1 uF capacitor). The capacitor does not work well as filter with the frequencies higher than the resonance frequency of the circuit.
-
Firkragg
Ukratko, prigusnica usporava vrijeme porasta struje nakon ukljucenja trijaka, tako da i smanjuje frekvenciju 'najviseg' harmonika koji nastaje pritom.DRUG STARI wrote:ja nisam elektronicar, ali mislim da ova zavojnica nema apsolutno nikakve veze sa smetnjama!
Ovi kupovni ugradbeni dimeri cesto imaju i vecu zavojnicu (sto si dozvole jer su manje snage) da bi reducirali interferenciju.
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43
Imam jedan problem napravi osam onu semu i nece da mi radi kako treba
na ulazu gde pise od 0-10V tu menjam napon i tako regulisem osvetljenje sijalice koja na izlaz trijaka. Merio sam napon od 0-10 V kada ga menjam trimwrom i lepo se regulise pa mislim da tu nije kvar na izlazu
ic-kola 741 napon se menja u zavisnosti od ulaznog napona od negativnog ka pozitivnom naponu a sijalica na odredjenom naponu se odjednom uplali do maksimuma. E sada ne znam da li je to do optokaplera posto sam koristio MOC3041 a ne MOC3020. Ne znam u cemoj e problem
na ulazu gde pise od 0-10V tu menjam napon i tako regulisem osvetljenje sijalice koja na izlaz trijaka. Merio sam napon od 0-10 V kada ga menjam trimwrom i lepo se regulise pa mislim da tu nije kvar na izlazu
ic-kola 741 napon se menja u zavisnosti od ulaznog napona od negativnog ka pozitivnom naponu a sijalica na odredjenom naponu se odjednom uplali do maksimuma. E sada ne znam da li je to do optokaplera posto sam koristio MOC3041 a ne MOC3020. Ne znam u cemoj e problem
To znaci da moc radi.
Verovatno je u 741 problem,izvadi moc i stavi obicnu le diodu na nozice 1 i 2 nemoj pogresiti sa polaritetom , 220 volti iskljuci ,LED nije vazno koje boje i sve ponovi i vidi da li dioda mjenja osvijetljenost, znaci u ritmu basova mora da blinka, ako to ne radi ,problem ti je u ulazu, konkretno 741 ili naponskom nivou koji dovodis na 741 , znaci treba ti naizmenicni signal na ulazu a ne samo 5volti, prilagodi neki izlaz sa pretpojacala ili miksete itd i probaj ali bez zarulje , kako sam opisao gore.
Dioda u moc je ir i malo se razlikuje od obicne ali za tvoj test to nije vazno.
To bi trebalo u ritmu basa da pali sijalicu sve zavisi od jacine signala koji dolazi na 741.
Da li si spojio oba ulaza na 741 , pogledaj odakle si skinuo tu semu kako je to tamo uradjeno ili daj link.
Ja sam pravio nesto drugo i sa moc3041 mozes da dimujes sijalicu od min do maksimuma , ali ako ledovka radi isto problem ti je u ulazu ako ledovka radi, probaj sa moc ako ne radi probaj malo da mjenjas ulaz zbog razlike dioda, ako ni tada ne radi mislim da nece ni sa moc 3020 ali probaj mozes i bez prigusnice ali ce ti praviti smetnje okolnim uredjajima.
Verovatno je u 741 problem,izvadi moc i stavi obicnu le diodu na nozice 1 i 2 nemoj pogresiti sa polaritetom , 220 volti iskljuci ,LED nije vazno koje boje i sve ponovi i vidi da li dioda mjenja osvijetljenost, znaci u ritmu basova mora da blinka, ako to ne radi ,problem ti je u ulazu, konkretno 741 ili naponskom nivou koji dovodis na 741 , znaci treba ti naizmenicni signal na ulazu a ne samo 5volti, prilagodi neki izlaz sa pretpojacala ili miksete itd i probaj ali bez zarulje , kako sam opisao gore.
Dioda u moc je ir i malo se razlikuje od obicne ali za tvoj test to nije vazno.
To bi trebalo u ritmu basa da pali sijalicu sve zavisi od jacine signala koji dolazi na 741.
Da li si spojio oba ulaza na 741 , pogledaj odakle si skinuo tu semu kako je to tamo uradjeno ili daj link.
Ja sam pravio nesto drugo i sa moc3041 mozes da dimujes sijalicu od min do maksimuma , ali ako ledovka radi isto problem ti je u ulazu ako ledovka radi, probaj sa moc ako ne radi probaj malo da mjenjas ulaz zbog razlike dioda, ako ni tada ne radi mislim da nece ni sa moc 3020 ali probaj mozes i bez prigusnice ali ce ti praviti smetnje okolnim uredjajima.
Last edited by abc on 15-03-2007, 20:34, edited 1 time in total.
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43
-
miloradkuzz
- Penjem se :)
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 26-12-2005, 22:43